Batum I hope you paid attention
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  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 12/10/2012 3:09 PM

    It was a Yes or No Question
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/10/2012 3:15 PM

    Is Dr. Pepper more delicious than Sprite mixed with grape crystal light powers?

    This too is a yes or no question.  And ironically, unrelated to my argument.

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/10/2012 3:24 PM

    I think we fans, myself included, need to be more mindful when making public posts that last for posterity, in that everyone gets fired-up for their team and emotions often run high in the Rose City.

    Aside from disagreeing with the premise that Batum isn't worth his contract and should be traded, and as a Blazer Fanatic, I take issue inflamatory assessments of my Trail Blazers.

    weak-minded:
    Displaying a complete lack of forethought and good sense: brainless, stupid, unintelligent, foolish, mindless, witless, senseless

     

    I won't fault someone for being inarticulate, but people can expect a disenting response from me when words like that are used to characterize any Blazers.

  1. uprised
    uprised
    Posts: 136

    Posted 12/10/2012 6:47 PM

    When you are plagiarizing Wikipedia's definition of straw man you should spell fallacy correctly....

    So is your argument that Kobe's contract is worse than Batum's?  I'd give Kobe his contract to play in Portland and whatever else he wanted to play here.  Kobe is a hall of famer and a leader.  Batum is a 5 year player (not counting France) that has just broken into the starting lineup on a lottery team that hasn't won a playoff series since 2000.  



    I am a fan of winning
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/10/2012 8:18 PM

    When you are plagiarizing a definition, ctr v ctr c.  You should email wikipedia and tell them they made an error.  I know they will be releaved knowing you're on the case, preserving the only source for the definition of words.  If you spent as much time addressing my actual argument, as you did worrying about my orthography or whether I give credit to a given dictionary after every multisylobic word I have to explain the meaning of for you to understand my point, this might be worth discussing.

     

    But now we know you googled the definition and know what a straw man argument is?  Apparently, it's going to take some practice to get a grasp of it, because you keep doing it.  You didn't read the very next line in my post, "The argument I made was not whether Batum is better than Kobe, it was whether Batum is worth his contract?"

     

    We aren't paying Batum 28 million, and his stats are very solid in comparison to Kobe.  I don't want Kobe's, "pants on the ground" leadership in Portland, but that has nothing to do with the argument I made.  You brought nothing to the discussion other than "Batum is stupid" and more sarcasm when I called you out.  Don't get mad, get informed.

     

     

     

     

  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 12/10/2012 9:41 PM

    Why are comparing Kobe and Batum? Seriously, dumb idea
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/10/2012 9:49 PM

    "Dumb" because you don't understand the comparison I made...  I won't fault you for an inability to understand, but I for calling something dumb that you don't understand definitely takes some sand.
  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 12/10/2012 10:05 PM

    come on you shouldn't even be comparing the too
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. Siccolo
    Siccolo
    Posts: 1250

    Posted 12/10/2012 10:10 PM

    Blazer Fanatic is the most intelligent Blazer Fan ever.

    I am a fan of This Quote "One Love. One Heart. One Human race."
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/10/2012 10:15 PM

    We shouldn't be talking about Batum not being worth his contract.  But here some are doing exactly that.  Same people that struggle to follow an analogy to Kobe.

     

    Exercise #1:

    If someone mention Hickson's ability to pile up boards, and get double doubles, and compairs that to how many double double's Lebron has - are they saying Hickson is better than Lebron?

     

     

    If you said no, then you are well on your way to understanding what I said about Batum and Kobe.

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/10/2012 10:20 PM

    Posted By Siccolo on 12/10/2012 10:10 PM

    Blazer Fanatic is the most intelligent Blazer Fan ever.



    When you play against a bad team, it's not hard to look like an All-Star.  Same goes for bad arguments.
  1. schwabbii
    schwabbii
    Posts: 205

    Posted 12/10/2012 10:31 PM

    Thank goodness for Blazer Fanatic! And I agree with her on not taking Kobe if given the chance. Kobe would need a lot more pieces around him and a bench in order to win, as is evident from this season. But I actually think comparing Kobes contract to Batums shows a quality point. 

    I am a fan of
  1. Blazer247
    Blazer247
    Posts: 591

    Posted 12/10/2012 11:31 PM

    As long as this thread stays respectful (to all fellow fans and players on our roster), this is an AWESOME conversation.

     

    Fanatic, you're quickly becoming one of my favorite posters. Lol.

     

    But please, dudes. Respect. :)

    I am a fan of BLAZER BASKETBALL. Not drafts, not business, not trades, not David Stern. Just BLAZER BASKETBALL.
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/11/2012 12:04 AM

    With all due respect...

     

    I am renaming this thread: Batum (Haters) I hope you paid attention

     

    With Batum dressed to impress on the Bench, still suffering from significant back pain and holding pat at 6th in the NBA for 3PM, the Blazer bench stepped up in Historic fashion helping capture a never before seen NBA record.  The Blazers attempted the most three point shots in a single game without a single make (0-20).  Yes Blazer fans, never before in the NBA, has a team attempted 20 three pointers without one finding the bottom of the net.

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/11/2012 12:30 AM

    Tonight the Blazers went 0-20 from the 3pt line, and miraculously won against a 2nd worst in the NBA Raptor team who were without 1 starter, and 2 others that left the game after playing a combined 25 minutes.  To help put that in perspective:

     

         The Blazer's first home meeting vs the Lakers last year, the Lakers went 0-11 from behind the arc, and it was the first time that the Fakers had a game without a 3-point make since November 2003.  The Lakers lost 107-96.  Bryant was asked after the game about the storyline of losses in Portland.  "It drives me crazy," he said. (ESPN)

     

    The first person to tell me that I am dumb for making a Faker/Blazer comparison gets a free warm fuzzy from Kobe's imaginary sad panda.

  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 12/11/2012 7:09 AM

    Is this for real? Like did I just read this. I agree with her on not taking Kobe if given the chance? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 12/11/2012 7:11 AM

    0-20 Yes!!! Deep down Inside I knew they could do it. Its awesome to have such a record breaking team.!! Whoooooo!
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 12/11/2012 7:35 AM

    This is living proof that Girls are the best sports fans
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. uprised
    uprised
    Posts: 136

    Posted 12/11/2012 9:08 AM

    I'm not ashamed to say I look things up here and there.  Maybe it's something you should try?  You misspelled relieved and multisyllabic.  When you tend to go on and on with excessively overwrought posts, it's got to be embarrassing to get caught cut and pasting from Wikipedia and misspelling things constantly.  I particularly liked the part where you made fun of me for using Wikipedia after I called you out for copying from it.  Now you are right, I probably shouldn't go around pointing out every spelling error.  Lord knows I misspell things all the time.  It's just that your tantrum with all the Philosophy 101 and wannabe professorial BS makes me want to expose the charlatan you are. 


    BDawg made a comparison between players that work hard (Kobe) and players that don't (Batum) to which you responded by comparing Kobe's stats to Batum's.  You acknowledged among other things that Kobe has 210 more points scored than Batum.  That's a lot of shots!  Kobe has never been accused of being mentally weak though.  It got me thinking about how Kobe had a bone on bone wrist injury last season, and still could have taken the scoring title if he had not decided to rest himself for the playoffs.  So I responded to your argument by saying somewhat inelegantly that it was "dumb".  Note I didn't call you dumb.  I said comparing Kobe to Batum was dumb because frankly, there is no comparison (on the court).  I cited Kobe's entire body of work.  I thought it was much more accurate and to compare what somebody has done to what somebody might do, or has done over the course of only 21 games.  I think it's also relavent to look at what Kobe was doing when he was Batum's age rather than now as a 37 year old man on a team in chaos.  You prefer to keep the outliers because they support your argument (which now you are calling an analogy, which it's not but who's nitpicking).  You can call it a straw man if you want but I think anybody who is paying attention knows it's not. 


    But enough about Kobe, I agree this isn't about who is "better".  I was just razzing you about how dumb it is to suggest that Batum is anywhere near Kobe's level.  Bottom line is that Batum, while improving, is still not worth his contract.  You think he is, there are some stats in 21 games that suggest he may be, but as of now he's not.  I remember a certain SF who played with a hurt back.  Larry Bird or something?  He was a no excuses player.  We need more of him and less of the underperforming whiner who punches players in the nuts during the olympics.  

     

    I am a fan of winning
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 12/11/2012 11:56 AM

    There is no point in comparing Batum to Kobe at all. 

    First of all you cannot compare their career averages because Kobe wins in a land slide. Same thing for career achievements, Olympic Golds, NBA Titles, NBA First Teams, All-Star appearances, Scoring Titles, Dunk Titles, NBA All Defense etc. Kobe wins in every single category. 

    You can compare them this year but that still leaves comparing someone in their 5th season vs someone in their 17th. However, if you want to look at the numbers Batum is still getting owned by Kobe. 

    FG% Kobe 48.2% Batum 42.3%
    3PT% Kobe 39.8% Batum 36.3%
    FT% 83.8% Batum 82.9%
    REB Kobe 5.0 Batum 5.8
    AST Kobe 4.9 Batum 3.1
    STL Kobe 1.7 Batum 1.6
    BLK Kobe .1 Batum 1.0
    PPG Kobe 28.6 Batum 16.4

    Batum is posting career highs in multiple areas but is still behind Kobe in everything but REB and BLK. 

    Now looking at per 48 mins numbers so no one gets a bonus for extra minutes.

    EFG% Kobe 53.7% Batum 51.4%
    FTA Kobe 10.5 Batum 4.5
    REB Kobe 7.1 Batum 7.1
    AST Kobe 6.3 Batum 4.0
    T/0 Kobe 4.9 Batum 3.2
    PTS Kobe 35.5 Batum 20.4
    PER Kobe 25.5 Batum 16.2

    The rebounding advantage Batum had is now gone leaving him with just fewer turnover. However, when you consider usage and the amount of ball handling Kobe does versus Batum it is easy to see where the extra T/O come from.

    Maybe Batum is a better defender though

    Opponents 48 MIN Production
    EFG% Kobe 44.4% Batum 53.6%
    FTA Kobe 4.1 Batum 2.5
    REB Kobe 4.8 Batum 7.0
    AST Kobe 4.0 Batum 4.0 
    T/O Kobe 2.5 Batum 3.4
    PTS Kobe 19.2 Batum 16.4
    PER Kobe 11.2 Batum 12.2 

    Kobe easily wins the eFG% holding his opponent around 5.5% under the league average while Batum is allowing around 3.5% more than the league average. Kobe commits more fouls but considering the high eFG% Batum's opponents are shooting this is more likely caused by Batum playing too far off of his man thus limiting his fouls. Kobe is routinely winning his rebounding battle while Batum is pretty much staying even with his man. The AST number is hard to gauge a higher number would suggest a player is getting a lot of help on defense and thus the ball handler is just passing the ball to the open man. However, the shot still needs to go in so this number is inconclusive. Batum is forcing a few more turnovers per game, which is likely caused by his Blocking ability. Kobe is giving up more points per 48 but the eFG% suggests that his opponents are taking a lot more shots to get their points. It is also important to consider Kobe is outscoring his opponent by around 15 points per 48 minutes. While Batum is just outscoring his opponent by 4 points per 48 minutes. The opponents PER are both very good which suggests that while Batum is giving up to many open shots his defense is good enough throughout the game that his opponents are not getting up a lot of shot attempts. 

    Right now I would suggest Kobe is a better defender but Batum has come a long ways from being listed on Synergy Sports worst defenders list. 

    Based on the stats and career numbers and achievements Kobe Bryant is with out a doubt a much better player than Batum.

    The other major issue was salary Kobe certainly does make a lot more money per year than Batum. However, considering the salary cap is not an issue for the Lakers and their franchise is one of the most profitable in the league this argument seems frivolous. Kobe has for years been the NBA's best selling jersey and Laker gear has always been among the leagues best sellers.  Kobe's five NBA titles, years of playoff success and the market allows the Lakers owners to charge considerably more per ticket than the Blazers could. Unless the Lakers and Blazers were forced to keep just one player and then try and build a team around that man's salary it means very little that Kobe makes significantly more than Batum does. 

    Kobe is the better offensive and defensive player, and he has accomplished a lot more than Batum. Kobe makes significantly more but he also makes the money back in merchandising and ticket sales. Kobe is without a doubt the better team leader and no one in the league works harder than him to stay in shape and improve their game each season. 

    Batum has made significant improvements this season posting a career high in PPG, Blocks, Steals, Reb, Ast, he is also playing significantly more minutes this year which automatically inflates his number some and he is shooting a career worst from the field. 

    Is Batum a good player, certainly, is he worth the 11 million a season to this team, sure looks like he is, but the question remains does Batum work and play hard enough to take his immense talents to the next level? Will we ever see Batum make an All-Star Team, Win Olympic Gold, Become an All-NBA Player, Be Named to All-NBA Defensive Team, Win a Scoring Title, Win a NBA Title, Win a MVP Award? Kobe has accomplished all of those because of how hard he works and plays on a nightly basis. I am not asking him to become the next Kobe but I am hoping that he will work hard, play hard EVERY MINUTE of EVERY GAME, and keep getting better. 

    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/11/2012 1:25 PM

    WARNING! WARNING!  ORTHOGRAPHY POLICE! 

    If your post starts out with a spell check SMASH, I don't read it. (now where's that edit button)

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/11/2012 1:34 PM

    Posted By cmeese47 on 12/11/2012 11:56 AM

     

    Is Batum a good player, certainly, is he worth the 11 million a season to this team, sure looks like he is.


    I knew you'd eventually work your way around to agreeing with me.  I had faith.  As for the comparison YOU are making between Batum and Kobe, career accomplishments, playing at or above their potential... enjoy that debate.  You've certainly laid out a solid argument and there are several people that I know will enduldge you.  1,2,3 not it. 

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/11/2012 1:37 PM

    Posted By Curvychloe on 12/11/2012 7:35 AM
    This is living proof that Girls are the best sports fans


    I think it's because we are less emotional. ; )
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 12/11/2012 2:23 PM

    Posted By Blazer Fanatic on 12/11/2012 1:34 PM

    Posted By cmeese47 on 12/11/2012 11:56 AM

     

    Is Batum a good player, certainly, is he worth the 11 million a season to this team, sure looks like he is.

    I knew you'd eventually work your way around to agreeing with me.  I had faith.  As for the comparison YOU are making between Batum and Kobe, career accomplishments, playing at or above their potential... enjoy that debate.  You've certainly laid out a solid argument and there are several people that I know will enduldge you.  1,2,3 not it. 


    Batum is worth the 11 million to this team but this team is also lottery bound and miles away from making the playoffs let alone competing for a NBA title. Batum is the second highest paid Blazer which in theory should also mean he is the second best or at second most valuable to the team. Batum is certainly putting up career best numbers playing 38 minutes a night. However, the real question is can Batum be the second best player on a NBA Championship team?

    I do not know that, right now based on his work ethic and the inconsistency still nagging his game I would venture to say that Batum could be a viable member on a title team but not a go to player. Can he improve, sure, he has done so this year and if he continues then maybe that assessment could change.  However for that to happen this team has to find a bench, I like Will Barton, Leonard, Jeffries and Pavlovic but they are not good enough to carry this team especially offensively. 

    Meyers Leonard has potential and I like his work ethic and aggression but he has a long ways to go. He is far to aggressive defensively drawing a large number of fouls without playing solid defense. He will improve but right now he is not good enough to demand big minutes.

    Sasha Pavlovic is a smart hard working veteran watching him hustle against Toronto was nice to see. Of all the Blazers on the bench he offers the most to this team. 

    Jerrad Jeffries he is a good defender and works hard when he is on the court but he is a mess offensively and has been getting destroyed on the boards when he is on the court. Maybe he just needs some consistent minutes or maybe he is too much of a offensive liability to command more than 8 minutes a night.

    Barton has the ability to score and to defend, right now he is not at the NBA level. In a couple of seasons he could be a valuable 6th man or be pushing for a starting spot but he needs to bulk up and improve before that happens. 

    Blazer Fanatic is right that Batum is not what is wrong with this team that the bench is, nevertheless, knowing how poor our bench is this team cannot survive nights where Batum drops 5 points like against Indiana or where he mentally checks out when his shot is not falling like he did against the Thunder. Batum's 20 point or better games 7 his 10 points or less games 6. We need more from our bench but we also need more consistency out of Batum. 

    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 12/12/2012 10:42 AM

    Yes Batum needs to be more consistent,but theres alot of nba players who struggle with consistency,it happens when you play the game of basketball,I mean I was always pretty consistent but I remember have games where I'd score like 3 and just struggled,weither it was the defense or,my emotions or just whatever,i wouldn't know,and then sometimes next game i'd go off for like 25-30 points so its hard to explain,i was trying,sometimes I just didn't have it and I can imagine as a nba player when your playing back to back or heck even just 2 games in 3 nites and practicing and traveling it can effect your conistency,thing is Batum is still very young alot of the 11 million has to do with potential,batum has the potential to be a scottie pippen type guy,I mean actually if you look at it pippens averages his forth year are similar to Batums,2nd best player,and all around skillz,he just needs to develop his offensive game,develop some kinda post game,work on taking other guys off the dribble,and to be honest he should learn how to draw fouls,thats the best way to get out've a slump,when nothing seems to be working offensivly,if you can get to the line,get some easy points,then it can really get your confidence going,cause so much of this game is mental,so draw some fouls, hit some free throws,get himself some stats so his confidence rises and it'd effect his whole game,I mean look at Adrian Dantley,study his game watch some tapes,he's a 3 for christ sake but his offensive game is limited to 3's and transistion buckets,other then that he's a all around player and thats rare, he just needs to improve in some areas and thats the difference between being the next scottie pippen and the next andre kirilenko
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 12/12/2012 12:56 PM

    Question though did you give up and not play hard on the nights you scored 3 points? Batum does and that is not okay.

    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. BDawg
    BDawg
    Posts: 1593

    Posted 12/12/2012 2:53 PM

    Word^
    I am a fan of players that play with PASSION and PRIDE
  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 12/12/2012 4:38 PM

    How can you tell if he's doing that or not? I mean sometimes it might seem that way to you,and maybe your right maybe he is? the game is about emotion,sometimes if I had a rough start,then yeah emotionally and mentally that set the tone and sometimes my adrenaline and effort wasn't the level it should be,it wasn't like I gave up or was just like fuck it,but emotionally I was out've sync. Likewise if I started good,some buckets early,maybe a few jumpers then emotionally,i'm smiling happy,confidence high and boom, 25 points. Thing is for him to start strong and if he doesn't,learn how to get himself to the line,so he can get those stats that get his confidence and moral higher can keep him momentumally in the game. Its basically a game of runs,a game of ebbs and flows. I don't necissarily know that he just gives up.
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. schwabbii
    schwabbii
    Posts: 205

    Posted 12/12/2012 4:54 PM

    My question is: How do you define and measure "hard work?"

    I am a fan of
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 12/12/2012 11:14 PM

    Watch Kevin Garnett, Rajon Rondo or Tony Allen play and that is how you know. 

    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/13/2012 4:07 AM

    Watch the Blazers in the 4 over times games they won.  That's how you know.

    Hitting shots and playing hard are mutually exclusive.  I don't know how anyone can question the Blazer's heart, or will, or effort, or mental toughness.  Seems like we could benefit from a few more realists posting to calm the angry mob.

  1. BLASER
    BLASER
    Posts: 757

    Posted 12/13/2012 5:16 AM

    you kind of need effort will and mental toughness to grind out an overtime victory and especially a double overtime win just saying 

    I am a fan of defensive man beasts
  1. BLASER
    BLASER
    Posts: 757

    Posted 12/13/2012 5:31 AM

    Will we ever see Batum make an All-Star Team, Win Olympic Gold, Become an All-NBA Player, Be Named to All-NBA Defensive Team, Win a Scoring Title, Win a NBA Title, Win a MVP Award? 


    he could make an all star team it's deff attainable as a bench player not sure about being an all nba player but he could make the all nba defensive team he is a great defender probaly won't win a scoring title or an mvp award and I'm pretty sure he'll never win a gold medal since 90% of all the best talent in the olympics is right here in the united states unless the euros completley take over the nba he deff has skills to do a good portion of that 

    I am a fan of defensive man beasts
  1. riverman
    riverman
    Posts: 1431

    Posted 12/13/2012 11:49 AM

    Christian Laetner won an Olympic gold medal but sucked his whole NBA career. I vote for LaMarcus, Nic and Wes everyday for the allstar team. That's why you vote. If you don't vote for a Blazer then you're not helping his cause. The allstar team is as much a popularity contest as anything so it's not that important. Lot of great players never make the team. I also vote for Andre Miller every year but he never makes it. Vote for who you like.

    I am a fan of A team that plays like Tower of Power on a big stage on a good night
  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 12/13/2012 1:02 PM

    So I should watch the Celtics Play? Cool
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 12/13/2012 1:04 PM

    Batum will definatley be a all star, He's probably a all-star,all defensive and maybe all nba 3rd team type player Kinda like a Syndney Moncrief level player
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 12/13/2012 6:20 PM

    Posted By riverman on 12/13/2012 11:49 AM

    Christian Laetner won an Olympic gold medal but sucked his whole NBA career. I vote for LaMarcus, Nic and Wes everyday for the allstar team. That's why you vote. If you don't vote for a Blazer then you're not helping his cause. The allstar team is as much a popularity contest as anything so it's not that important. Lot of great players never make the team. I also vote for Andre Miller every year but he never makes it. Vote for who you like.


    I totally disagree with this. I hate the popularity aspect of the all-star game which is why I vote for whoever is having the best season. I do not care if they are a Blazer, Laker, Net or what if they are having the best season they deserve to go.

    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/13/2012 10:19 PM

    BATUM (HATERS) I HOPE YOU PAID ATTENTION

     

    Bad back?  Excuses? 

     

    CLUTCH 3  CLUTCH BLOCK  CLUTCH STEAL CLUTCH REBOUND CLUTCH FREE THROWS

     

    /thread

     

  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 12/13/2012 10:46 PM

    someone loves batum
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. knorton181
    knorton181
    Posts: 264

    Posted 12/14/2012 1:31 AM

    What a terrible thread this has become lol. Back to the point.

    I could definitely see an argument going for both ways, and I'm sure there's plenty of other people around the NBA who would side with both. But I believe he is worth it due to:      This being a "renewal" (I hate saying rebuilding, that's so pessimistic and "throw in the towel"-esque) stage for the Blazers.

    We seem to have found the PG for the future in Dame, We have a solid SG for years to come in Wes, LA.. nough said, and Hickson & Meyers duo as well as some solid bench pieces.
    I don't see anywhere this team would make sense to bring any of those listed free agents (somewhere in a different post) who would want the big bucks.. The only area for great improvement is in the Center position and besides Dwight (who I don't even think would fit well here) idk of any that would make a signifact impact as a starter getting paid the big $$. So what's all this haste towards a lot of cap space?(- MC Norton)

    But as for his ability, Batum has some game, definitely brings some pieces to this team that we, like any winning team, would need.
    1. Size, speed/quickness, & reactions
    2. Lock-Down defender, and I mean literally put him on the best player and he can make that player go away for the time being
    3. Versatility of style & position (not to mention the depth at SF is seriously lacking around the league)

    4. Great shot, great dribble drive (plus you'd be surprised how much value FT% is among F's in the league lol)
    5. Young
    6. Awareness & vision are very high
    7. Clutch factor , makes a lot of high level plays when the team really needs him to

    I don't know many players that can add ALL seven of those things to a team who wouldn't be paid a whole lot of money around the league.
    To me, There's no real downside to bringing batum in for that money right now. Let me explain:

      1. Won't need to resign Lillard & Meyers for a while so there's no urgency to have a lot of room for cap
      2. Like stated before, no need to bring in any other real hefty contracts, so freed up cap space would have helped but not nearly as much as having a player with Batum's skill-set (stated above lol) does

      3. Low expectations for this team, which means an uphill battle, but with great coaching and a lot of great talent on this team, Batum WILL get better in those circumstances, as would ANY player. And so also because of low expections, much of the added depth can be through the draft since we have about 4 2nd rnd picks next year (probably to be used in a trade) and we will (at worst) have a high draft pick this year.
      4. The Youth, he adds great value because his style of play is very energetic, and he lifts his teammates up around him because of that style of play. Each player feeds off of each other's energy (which is why I like this team so much). Look around though, I'm not seeing much youth at the SF position right now(good, proven youth). & With his and the team's youth, we can build a team that builds chemistry together and grows as a whole throughout a period of time, the way an NBA team should rise up.

    Point being, I can understand  how this contract wouldn't make sense if it happened among the team we had about 3 years ago, but to me it's the perfect player for the team we have right now.

    And Look, Batum's gotta get a little more consistent, but he has so much value that is overlooked by stats & player comparisons, which actually aren't even really bad at all if you compare him to his own postion.
    I think he's grown a lot throughout the years and still is; game by game I see something he does better.

    I am a fan of
  1. BDawg
    BDawg
    Posts: 1593

    Posted 12/14/2012 1:45 AM

    Lol ^ No amount of cyber bullying by any in-fanatic-tuated fan will ever dissuade this basketball mind from having an objective opinion about any player, nor will I allow others here to feel they can't speak their mind without fear of public persecution. Moderators monitor. Warnings to play nice have been delivered.
    I am a fan of players that play with PASSION and PRIDE
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/14/2012 4:54 AM

    Posted By BDawg on 12/14/2012 1:45 AM
    Lol ^ No amount of cyber bullying by any in-fanatic-tuated fan will ever dissuade this basketball mind from having an objective opinion about any player, nor will I allow others here to feel they can't speak their mind without fear of public persecution. Moderators monitor. Warnings to play nice have been delivered.


    Horrible pun attempt "in-fanatic-tuated"... implicite, public, persecutory, bullying, ironic, and off topic. 

    Stay classy.

     

    I noticed you agreed with the OP.  What's the story line you are pushing for with this kind of post?

        New poster cencored and chased off forum for reasoned decent

     

    Back ON TOPIC:

    Nic has been inconsistant scoring the ball this year.  Rather than endulge in a slippery slope of Batum bashing where we petition him to give back 25% of his salary and posting a scathing diatribe akin to:

     

    Agree meese. The one consistency in Nic's game is inconsistency. Really, Nico should take a page from the book of his many supporters whom CONSISTENTLY have an excuse for his vanishing acts. Very weary of excuses, watching Wes play injured and finding ways to be impactful, Kobe play with the flu and drop 40+. Equally tiresome are the cries of "potential" and "look how young Nico is". Consider how many YEARS Batum has been playing professional level ball, forgetting this is his FOURTH YEAR here. C'mon. Cute works in bars on Friday nights, not on the hardwood and not for what your agent demanded you be compensated. Cowboy up or get run out of town. Two options. One choice.

    Before you jump me remember, I demand players play. No play, no pay...that's the real world you (the reader) and I live in. We don't have guaranteed contracts where we clock in every day. To ask, even demand MY financial backing while not performing, yet still collecting a paycheck, is simply ludicrous and hypocritical.

     

    This was your initial contribution.  I'd rather stick to Batum's actual contribution to date, or how he could improve.  I struggle to agree with anything in you wrote, which is riddled with hyperbole and cliches. If you percieve my saying so as "cyber bullying", then I should assume the same about your post.  Should I feel threatened that my disagreeing will be met with "you have been warned," and threatened to get "moderated"? 

     

    I am a huge proponent of people voicing their opinions.  Assuming that someone is trying to stop you from posting, because they provide a reasoned argument in opposition to your opinion, is a poor assumption.  You don't make a compelling argument in my opinion, but I am not posting my agrument had you not posted your's. I want people to post.  It's really the point of a forum.  You need to understand, it's the idea and the arguement being "persecuted" not the individual, unlike your "in-fanatic-tuated" remark.  If people want to digress away from the argument, don't blame me.

     

    P.S.

    Extremely quiet night on the message boards after, arguably, the biggest Blazer win of the year on National TV wouldn't you say?

    Guess there wasn't anything to complain about.

     

     

     

     

     

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/14/2012 4:58 AM

    Posted By knorton181 on 12/14/2012 1:31 AM

    What a terrible thread this has become lol. Back to the point....

    I don't know many players that can add ALL seven of those things to a team who wouldn't be paid a whole lot of money around the league.
    To me, There's no real downside to bringing batum in for that money right now. Let me explain: ...
     
    And Look, Batum's gotta get a little more consistent, but he has so much value that is overlooked by stats & player comparisons, which actually aren't even really bad at all if you compare him to his own postion.
    I think he's grown a lot throughout the years and still is; game by game I see something he does better.



    Solid take. +1
  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 12/14/2012 9:04 AM

    This whole "Cyber Bulling" thing is ridiculous and Warning people,come on Bdawg seriously I hate when people run for help. Its a board with opinions and BlazerFanatic has made alot of really good points about Batum. He's a player with potential to be a all around player in the mode of Scottie Pippen or Sydney Moncrief. There is no downside to Batum,he can only get better,and yes these boards were dead last nite,I wanted to post alot but nobody else was posting
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. BDawg
    BDawg
    Posts: 1593

    Posted 12/14/2012 12:41 PM

    True enough CC. My take hasn't changed for the three years folks have been linking the word potential to Batum. He'll never be more than a complimentary player, and never net a team more than an 18-6 avg. Further, he'll never make an all-star team. If I am wrong, you can find me right here. If those that disagree are wrong, they'll disappear like so many have in the past, since I first began with the boards several years ago. Batum has improved this year, and thus far. To become what many think he can, he will have to learn to put the ball on the floor and create for both himself and others with the bounce...becoming what those familiar with the game would call a "triple threat"...AND, he will have to rewire his personality. Just don't see all that happening. He is who he is, just as LA will never become a low post beast despite possessing all of the physical attributes to be one. Until then, he's a "nice piece", and I am content with where he is at right now. Going 2-11 from the field is fine when you're contributing in other areas.

    Being objective doesn't make me or anyone else on our boards any less of a fan, and certainly doesn't invite criticism and personal attacks. I have only asked that we respect each other moving forward, even when Nic is the topic of conversation.
    I am a fan of players that play with PASSION and PRIDE
  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 12/14/2012 1:40 PM

    18 and 6 is good numbers people have made all star teams with lower numbers. I dont remember attacking anyone
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. BDawg
    BDawg
    Posts: 1593

    Posted 12/14/2012 2:42 PM

    Agree, agree, and you didn't
    I am a fan of players that play with PASSION and PRIDE
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/14/2012 3:33 PM

    BDawg, your original post was a negative rant, which is entirely your prerogative to post. My response was grounded in statistics that would seem to be in stark contrast to your amorphous diatribe that Batum should give money back. And for that, I was called a "Kool-aid drinker," "Batum lover," and that my argument was "dumb" and “stupid.”  You chose to ignore those completely unsolicited "attacks" and personally threaten me, by name, with your moderator authority, and because I disagreed with you.  It is the epitome of bias, and it is offensive.

     

    You are absolutely incorrect that posting what you originally did does not invite critisism.  Your entire post was critical of Batum.  And I am absolutely critical of your OPINION of Batum.  What's worse is that you type "Before you jump me."  You KNEW people would be critical of your opinion when you typed it.  And it's personal attacks that invite personal attacks, cause and effect.  You chose to go after the new girl by name, "in-fanatic-tuated fan."   "Moving forward..." after you threaten me with whatever authority you have and call me a cyber bully.  Real classy. 

    It never ceases to amaze me that those that paint others with the broadest of brushes, and disregard any opinion or fact that runs counter to their negative narrative, are the ones who cry wolf the hardest. You and others are shocked that I would put any of you “Batum Haters” in that box, or bubble, with giant labels on it, incredulous that you put yourself in that bubble by attacking my argument and me the way you and others did. You get what you give.  Don’t project any guilt you may have for making a poor argument or animosity from the humble pie on your face, on me.  It’s your argument.  Support it, and stop crying about being a victim, or threating moderator action. 

     

    "If those that disagree are wrong, they'll disappear like so many have in the past, since I first began with the boards several years ago." When you pair this with your previous comments of "cyber bullying" and "moderator warning", it smacks of what it must be like walking into a local biker bar and getting kicked out if not beat up; locals defending their turf.  Thanks for making a new poster and life-long Blazer fan feel unwelcome BDawg. 

     

    Moving forward... your opinion is not a fact, and if it is critical of any Blazer, expect that other Blazer fans will be critical of your opinion.

  1. BlazerManiac
    BlazerManiac
    Posts: 777

    Posted 12/14/2012 4:13 PM

    Posted By BDawg on 12/14/2012 12:41 PM
    True enough CC. My take hasn't changed for the three years folks have been linking the word potential to Batum. He'll never be more than a complimentary player, and never net a team more than an 18-6 avg. Further, he'll never make an all-star team. If I am wrong, you can find me right here. If those that disagree are wrong, they'll disappear like so many have in the past, since I first began with the boards several years ago. Batum has improved this year, and thus far. To become what many think he can, he will have to learn to put the ball on the floor and create for both himself and others with the bounce...becoming what those familiar with the game would call a "triple threat"...AND, he will have to rewire his personality. Just don't see all that happening. He is who he is, just as LA will never become a low post beast despite possessing all of the physical attributes to be one. Until then, he's a "nice piece", and I am content with where he is at right now. Going 2-11 from the field is fine when you're contributing in other areas.

    Being objective doesn't make me or anyone else on our boards any less of a fan, and certainly doesn't invite criticism and personal attacks. I have only asked that we respect each other moving forward, even when Nic is the topic of conversation.

    BDAWG - I guess you and I havd big ass targets on are back fro speaking the truth.  I have to disagree with you with regards to Batum, he is playing the same this year at best. As I have said on a previous posts, his minutes have increased by 25% as weill as his point production by 25% from last season so in percenatge basis it is the same.  No improvement.

    You are right he will not be an all star in the league and he will be a complentary player as best.  I love the Blazers, but I will give Batum credit when it is due. like last night with Batum's 8 assists and the clucth three point shot he made.  It is my opion still, that Batum's best value for the Blazers is at the trade deadline.  Send him to Minnesota in a package to get Kevin Love (who is not happy).  As you and I agree, he is very consistent and being inconsistent and we need more than that from him.  I am tired of hearing about his potential, it is time to play at his potential and then some.

    However in the long term, Give me a team surrounded by LA (when he plays in the Low Post), Wes, JJ and Damian, with the same work ethic and drive and we will be a contender and championship team.

    Last night they closed in the forth quarter, but I still hope and pray that they play the way they did the last two games in the future.  Especially LA last game who was a beast in the Low Post when both Wes and Batum were out.  You get him and JJ in the Low post and we are difficult to beat.  In addition they played excellent in the paint the last two games and guess what they won.

    I remember when Roy went out and LA stepped up.  He was unbeatable.  Same way he played against Toronto.  LA Keep playing that way/

    Basically shoot my target, I will always be objective.

    GO BLAZERS!

    I am a fan of WES, the heart and soul of the Blazers.
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 12/14/2012 4:18 PM

    This thread has gotten far off from my intention. Batum has played much better this season, I still feel he is over paid but at this point it is hardly egregious. The whole point I wanted to make with this thread was that Batum needs to step up his aggression. He clearly has the talent and the fat paycheck, I just want to see him busting his ass out there on the court every night. I want to see him be our Tony Allen, Rajon Rondo, or Gerald Wallace, someone who is not afraid to take a charge, hit someone in the mouth or dive for a lose ball. 

    Batum is very good player but he is still too inconsistent and not enough of a leader. I want more out of the kid who is the Blazers number 2 player. This team is lacking leadership on the floor and has been since we lost Roy and Miller. I believe that our second best player and second highest paid player needs to do more. Pippen was a monster for the Bulls he got in peoples faces and dared them to shoot or drive on him. He was amazing in the passing lanes and was ferocious with the ball. Batum has showed a few of those moments with some big dunks on people but I want to see more. When he starts giving me 5 plus free throw attempts per night and in your face defense every possession, I will have to have my stomach pumped from ODing on the Batum Kool Aid. 

    Right now he is not that player and as a fan we have the right to ask for and expect more even if what he has been giving is pretty good. 

    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
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